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Natural Gas: Follow the science?

We must take note of the national kerfuffle about gas stoves that has been boiling over this week.  It's totally pertinent to B'game because our last city council bought into the climate hype and instituted a "reach code" such that new construction can't have any natural gas–not just stoves, but water heaters, furnaces, and barbeques.  No gas for you!  Now the Feds are making similar noises and then backtracking as the WSJ notes

A Biden appointee on the Consumer Product Safety Commission explicitly threatened to ban gas stoves based on dubious evidence of public-health harm. “This is a hidden hazard,” said commissioner Richard Trumka Jr. “Any option is on the table. Products that can’t be made safe can be banned.”  After withering public criticism, including by Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin, the CPSC Chairman denied any plan to ban, and the White House said President Biden also doesn’t want to ban gas stoves. But that’s cold comfort given that the climate left does want to ban them, and progressive cities and states are doing it.

One might ask what is the science behind gas phobia?  Well, today the SF Chronicle actually let a letter to the editor slip through that is pretty clear on the science:

There has lately been a lot of concern about gas ranges and how they can harm indoor air quality, but some of this is too fast and too furious.  As an active researcher in indoor air quality, there can be no doubt that gas cooking produces nitrogen dioxide and that this is bad for respiratory health but the level of concern is far higher than the data show the situation actually warrants. 

Cooking is likely the most polluting thing done in homes. It produces lots of contaminants, regardless of the heat source. Switching to electric may not make the sum total significantly better.  The solution that works regardless of the type of cooking is using your range hood when cooking. Range hoods have been required in California for a long time. Studies have not shown that there would be any significant difference in net harm between gas and electric cooking if you actually use range hoods when cooking.

Max Sherman, retired senior scientist, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

I'll bet if you were one of the 2.4 million PG&E customers that lost power over the last two weeks you were thankful you had a gas stove and some matches even if your range hood or downdraft vent didn't work.  Open a window and enjoy a cup of tea or a bowl of soup.

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47 responses to “Natural Gas: Follow the science?”

  1. Paloma Ave

    Could former organized labor leader, Richard Louis Trumka, being trying to drum up work for union electrical workers?
    After all, many homes with gas stoves do not have 240-volt outlets needed to power electric stoves.

  2. JP

    I have a friend who wanted “to do the right thing” and go electric. Called an electrician and found out that not only did he need a couple of new 220 outlets but his whole panel was undersized and needed to be replaced. “The right thing” turned out to be gas. LOL

  3. Joe

    And right on cue, Belmont weighs in with more sheep-like behavior regarding a natural gas reach-for-your-wallet code. Check out the little fascist they have elected to “steer the populace”:
    Vice Mayor Davina Hurt said the ordinance will help the state end the sale of fossil fuel cars by 2035.
    “I’m fully supportive of reducing our carbon footprint through transportation and getting ahead of what’s going to be the future, which is everyone is going to pretty much have EV chargers, and I think if we start steering our populace in that direction, sooner than later, it will just be easier in the future,” Hurt said.
    https://www.smdailyjournal.com/news/local/belmont-officials-seek-more-electric-in-homes/article_66b6820e-9640-11ed-96ec-cbc61c06177a
    Want to know what is wrong with our state, our county and our cities? It’s electing people who thing they SHOULD STEER THE POPULACE. When you go look up “public servant” in a real reference, it will tell you the POPULACE STEERS THE ELECTED OFFICIAL. One wonder what the recall process is in Belmont and if there are a sufficient number of people who can think for themselves to pull it off with Ms. Hurt?

  4. Spurinna

    Government for…the people.
    Basic.
    Wonder if they teach this in school anymore?

  5. Peter Garrison

    Somebody’s got to run on “Government by and for the people” in Burlingame.

  6. Joanne

    Hmm wondering how hazardous to our health are cell phones???
    And what about all the plastic packaging used when ordering from Amazon??
    How great is all that trash along 101 in San Mateo/Burlingame that hardly EVER gets cleaned up??
    Just saying…

  7. Paloma Ave

    Yet again, the Bay Area Air Quality Management District is trying to take something away in order to justify their existence. They are pigs at the trough, nothing more.
    In the past they have wanted your employer to charge you to park at your employer’s parking lot. They have wanted to force you to remove your fireplace. Now they want to ban your gas appliances.
    I guess a womans right to an abortion is the only thing regulators are in favor of.
    Otherwise, you have no right to live your life as you see fit.

  8. Gerald Weisl

    We have had gas appliances for ages, no? But we have not had seriously poisonous light tubes but for maybe 90 years and perhaps 40 for CFLs which should require careful disposal. Perhaps local governments might consider figuring out a simple and convenient method for those to be dealt with (as long as they are intent on saving the world).
    **********
    With the recent storms and numerous power outages, how do these anti-gas advocates suggest citizens manage to cook and stay warm when the electricity is out for a day, two or three?
    **********

  9. Peter Garrison

    Can’t use wood fireplaces during those frigid nights when there’s the inversion layer making the sky grey.
    So people were advised to change to natural gas.
    We did.
    Oopsy.

  10. MBGA

    I think it will be okay to burn books, though.

  11. Joe

    The Electrician Full-Employment Act is coming. Check out the comments at the end of this snip from the Comicle article:
    One major obstacle to the proposed regulations is clear, however: electrical capacity in homes. Because installing electric water heaters and furnaces will increase load demand, some older homes will need bigger electrical panels.
    Mike Kapolnek, a retired engineer who lives in Sunnyvale, has been complaining to the air district about potential unintended consequences for months. He said most homes built before the late 1970s don’t have 200-amp panels, the level that many electrical engineers say is ideal to support a fully electric single-family home, including appliances and vehicle charging.
    Kapolnek said he worries that if the rule doesn’t include an exception for homes with old panels, it could force some to leave their homes. The process for PG&E to process electrical panel retrofits can take many months. Such upgrades also easily cost $2,000-$5,000.
    He and his wife are in the process of having a new panel installed — a proactive move on their part — and he expects it will take eight months for PG&E to approve the upgrade.
    “They can’t even support the smaller number of upgrades going on now,” Kapolnek said. “(The rule change) makes sense, but it needs to be done properly. It needs to be managed like a gargantuan public-works project, and it doesn’t seem to be.”
    Nudd said concerns about the need for electric panel upgrades are why the air district is seeking to delay implementation. He said technology in the sector is rapidly evolving and reducing load demand.
    Laura Feinstein, sustainability and policy director for SPUR — the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association — said the concern about electric panels in homes is a knee-jerk reaction. She said there are already a host of relatively cheap devices, including circuit sensors and smart current sensors, that allow homeowners to switch power between high-demand electrical appliances, such as water heaters, dryers and vehicles, as they use them.
    “There’s a lot of ways in which people have been overestimating how many homes are going to need a new panel,” she said.
    ———————-
    Sure. Let’s buy, install and maintain/fix a bunch of sensors and switches all over our houses. Sounds like a great plan.

  12. Paloma Ave

    Lead article in San Mateo Daily Journal today “City cooling on electrification”.
    San Carlos officials have decided to represent the interest of their constituents, instead of trying to further their own political careers.
    Hopefully, other Bay Area cities will ‘smarten up’ too?
    And please let the Bay Area Air Quality Management District to go back to JUST collecting their paychecks and stop trying to dictate how we should be living.

  13. Joe

    If this weren’t so sad, it would be funny. I was chatting with a friend from Palo Alto today. He recently did a big remodel of his home and went “all-electric”. (Yes, he’s several decades younger than me 🙂
    So I ask him how it’s working out. He says “I probably should have done more reading on the subject”. Cost aside (capital and operating expenses) which were notably higher, the heat pump just ain’t cuttin’ it. C’est la vie.

  14. Joe

    We got us some rocket scientists here:
    San Francisco Chronicle: Interestingly, frequent outages may hurt the state’s electrification efforts. Residents who experienced public safety power shutoffs had a relatively high interest in buying fossil fuel generators, compared to residents in nearby neighborhoods without outages, according to research from UC Santa Barbara professor Leah Stokes. They also had less interest in buying electric vehicles, Stokes found.
    Ultimately, the responsibility falls on utilities to upgrade their infrastructure, McPherson said.
    Utilities are responsible for outages caused by damage to substations or power lines, such as those from toppled trees in the January storms. In response to both wildfire and storm risk, PG&E is undertaking vegetation management and building stronger poles, said Aaron August, PG&E vice president of utility partnerships and innovation.
    The utility is also undergrounding 10,000 miles of power lines in high-fire-risk areas, August said. Undergrounding, though, is an expensive, and thus limited, fix: It costs PG&E up to $6.1 million per mile of power line, according to the California Public Utilities Commission.

  15. Peter Garrison

    2;4/23
    Electricity out again downtown Burlingame.
    Jeez.

  16. Phinancier

    Senators Ted Cruz and Joe Manchin introduced a bill on Thursday that would block a federal agency from banning the use of gas stoves even though there are no plans to outlaw them.
    The move comes amid fierce public debate over the health and environmental impacts of the cooking appliances that burn fossil fuel and over the broader role of natural gas in fighting climate change.
    Cruz, a Texas Republican, and Manchin, a West Virginia Democrat, teamed up to float the Gas Stove Protection and Freedom Act, a bill that would prevent the Consumer Product Safety Commission from banning gas stoves.
    The agency has said it has no plans to ban the appliance but its top commissioner, Richard Trumka Jr., caused an uproar last month when he told Bloomberg News that natural gas stoves are “a hidden hazard” and suggested they should be banned.

  17. Joe

    This guy Gavin cracks me up:
    Federal probe sought for natural gas prices:
    Gov. Gavin Newsom called on the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to look into market manipulation, anticompetitive behavior or other activities as the cost of the resource has skyrocketed, prompting shockingly high energy bills.

  18. Spurinna

    Councilmember Beach’s tag-line, “It’s the right thing to do,” forestalls debate by labeling opposing views as inherently “wrong.” (SMDJ 2/15)
    What’s right is for the government to stay out of my home.

  19. Cassandra

    Love the remark in the SF CHRONICLE along the lines of:
    “Can I bathe my baby with hot water tonight? Oops. Windy night! Tree fell across the power lines again. No hot water and no alternative to heat the cold water for days.”
    Stay out of my bathtub.

  20. Joe

    In the tradition of asking for city council help and leadership like here: https://www.burlingamevoice.com/2020/02/banning-natural-gas-in-bgame#comments
    I have crafted some questions for our council regarding furnace replacement. This just went to council@burlingame.org
    Dear Council,
    I have been pondering how I might comply with a possible ban on replacing my gas furnace with electric heat in the event of either a City of Burlingame or Bay Area Air Quality Management District ruling to do so. I have some “known unknown issues” in doing so which you may be able to clarify.
    For this application, I have an indoor wall-mounted furnace of the type that has been in use all over California for decades. It is a relatively new unit that is rock-solid reliable with minimal maintenance and measures 66” H x 16” W x 6” D. The gas is fed at the bottom and vents from a top flue that goes through the wall, through the second story wall and through the roof. It is controlled by an external, remote-to-the-furnace Emerson thermostat of the older millivolt design that only controls gas furnaces.
    Some questions arise should I have to replace it with electric. Would I be able to find a similar size and capacity indoor unit? If so, I would I then have to run new wiring from the panel through multiple walls to the unit. Would the old gas feed be capped and left in the wall or would dry wall need to be cut, patched, taped, sanded, primed and painted to match? Similarly, what would become of the old vent? Should it just be left in the wall like the skeleton of some long-dead rodent?
    At the roof exit, should I expect to engage a roofer to remove the vent, patch the plywood and install one or two square feet of shingles? There are probably plenty of roofers looking for that size job, but I would have to get bids.
    Would I have to replace the thermostat? If so, what if the millivolt wiring is insufficient to control the new electric unit? That would seem to involve another patch, tape etc job, however small it might be? One would hope that the matching paint is still around and usable.
    There are several additional questions should I determine that there is no suitable indoor unit, and an outside heat pump is required. Aside from where to locate the outside unit and how to power it, it appears one has to cut through the exterior wall to feed the indoor “head unit” that would likely be located in a different place than the prior wall furnace? That work would appear to make patching, taping, etc look like a simple DIY project.
    Given the world-class weather in Burlingame, I have never considered having air conditioning. It appears most heat pumps also act as air conditioners with the associated cost and complexity of refrigerant, thermostats, etc.
    If the city has studied all of these issues and cost estimates, I would be most interested in gaining access to that information. This is the much simpler application on my property. I may write again to understand what changes would be needed for the more complex integrated water heater, forced hot water/radiator application.
    Best regards,
    Joe Baylock

  21. Peter Garrison

    And, respectfully request that the council first make the modifications in their home(s) and share the money and time spent for these modifications.

  22. JP

    Power flicker just now. Router took awhile to restart. Not sure about the heat pump!! :-0

  23. Peter Garrison

    Cooking with gas as we speak…

  24. Paloma Ave.

    I believe our councilmembers need to be reminded of what their responsibilities are.
    1) Keep the city as crime free; 2) Keep our city running smoothly; 3) Keep our city a desirable place to live in.
    What not to do.
    1) Don’t inflict what you want or think on the citizens of Burlingame.
    Can I make that any clearer?

  25. Paloma Ave.

    Hey Duff Beach – Do you remember when you told us it was only going to be new construction? Well, do you?
    How about having a chat with Emily. Did she lie to you too?

  26. Paloma Ave

    Dear Councilmembers,
    I am going to be heating up dinner in my GAS stove tonight, since the power is out.
    I will also be firing up my tri-fuel generator (includes natural gas as a fuel),so I can stay online and watch TV.
    Also, don’t make decisions on my behalf!

  27. Joe

    Maybe the power is out at City Hall tonight too. That would make for a cozy closed session about the YIMBY’s lawsuit. Imagine–candlelight and lawyers.
    What make/model is your generator?

  28. Paloma Ave

    North of Broadway has been out of power since 5:30 p.m. last night.

  29. Paloma Ave

    Update. North of Broadway out 20 hours now. South of Duff’s place.

  30. Joe

    In looking at the PG&E outage map on pge.com the outage appears to affect more than 20 blocks in Burlingame (from just south of B’way to just past Easton on the west side and almost to Grove on the east side. Also a bit of Eastmoor and Oxford around the park.
    Start time for the big outage was 1:52pm yesterday and expected restoration is 6pm today. The orange color code indicates it could affect up to 5,000 service addresses (that could easily be 10,000 people) and the other green sections probably add up to another 1,000-1,500 service addresses including lower Hillsborough.
    Per Google “If the doors stay closed, food will stay safe for up to: 4 hours in a refrigerator. 48 hours in a full freezer; 24 hours in a half-full freezer.”
    Those with medical devices and no back-up had a rough night.
    Those with gas stoves just needed a match and they were good to go.

  31. Paloma Ave

    Interesting tidbit.
    They used to make refrigerators that ran on either natural gas or propane!
    No electricity needed.
    I even saw one and lit the pilot light.

  32. Joe

    Please scroll up and remind yourself of my questions to the city council about how to “retrofit” my house to remove natural gas. Here is the mayor’s response and my follow up response:
    Dear Joe:
    Just to add a PS, we appreciate your thoughtful questions. And, as you say, we are not the only potential actor in terms of compelling old homes to convert from gas to electricity. Among others, there is the possibility that PG&E itself might try to wean everyone off of gas lines, not to mention BAQMD as you say. This is one reason that Council agreed with Staff’s recommendation that we require new buildings to be electric, to future proof them.
    The Council has not discussed mandating retrofits and I sense little appetite to go down that road. No one has asked to agendize it, for example. Nor is it, so far as I know, in our staff workplan.
    Of course, in a message like this which includes Council Members, one cannot express a policy or outcome preference. But suffice to say your questions are on point and such a mandate would certainly be costly for homeowners, many of whom are on fixed incomes.
    Thanks for writing,
    Michael
    Mayor (2023)
    City of Burlingame
    ————–
    My response is slightly edited for clarity about the clerk logging this all in as public comment:
    Dear Mr. Mayor,
    Thank you, and subsequently councilmember Colson, for prompt responses. I will study the material Donna has provided closely. While I am slightly relieved that there is little appetite on the council for moving to force retrofits, my preference would be to see the City of Burlingame and the council demonstrate leadership by publicly advocating in the other direction, i.e. public advocacy against forced retrofits. Advisory notices to PG&E and BAQMD would go a long way towards highlighting the half-baked (quarter-baked?) idea that appears to be popular with people who haven’t actually managed real projects themselves.
    Best regards,
    Joe Baylock

  33. Peter Garrison

    Leaders lead; not merely react.
    Thanks, Joe.

  34. resident

    We have a leadership supply chain crisis.

  35. Joe

    I guess half of the stove market surviving is better than none. News clipping:
    Half of gas stove models sold in the United States today won’t comply with a first-ever efficiency regulation on cooking appliances, according to a new analysis from the Department of Energy.
    The projection, which DOE posted online two weeks after the rule’s release Jan. 31, aims to provide more clarification on the expected impact of a proposal earlier this month that is now receiving comments from the public (Energywire, Feb. 1).
    DOE says the cooking regulation will preserve some market share for gas stoves that have at least one high-input rate burner and continuous cast iron grates, two features that DOE determined are priorities for the public. Both features use a lot of energy.
    “DOE’s analysis is constructed so that the proposed standard would ensure that products with at least one HIR burner and continuous grates can continue to be available on the market,” Jeremy Ortiz, a department spokesperson, told E&E News on Thursday.

  36. Joe

    We have another youngster, Danielle Echeverria, who may or may not have ever actually hired a single contractor, electrician or plumber in her life writing for the SF Comicle about gas stoves. See if you can find the missing information before I tell you at the end:
    Bay Area regulators want to phase out gas furnaces and water heaters, but are not currently considering banning gas stoves. California has a far higher average of households that use natural gas for cooking — in 2020, the latest available data, it was at 70%. The U.S. average was 38%, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.
    For people in older homes, like many in the Bay Area, the first thing to do is make sure your electrical panel is up to the task. Electric stoves usually require 40 amps of space on your electric panel — if you live in an older home with a smaller service panel, you’ll need to check with an electrician to see whether your panel can handle the added pull. If not, you’ll need to upgrade your panel.
    On top of that, there may not be adequate wiring or outlets for an electric range where a gas one currently stands — electric ranges typically require a 240 volt outlet. If this is the case, you’ll need to install new electrical wiring to the range from the panel, which includes new wiring, a new outlet and potentially cutting through walls or ceilings.
    Getting your electric setup prepared for a new electric range can be expensive….HomeAdvisor put the average cost for upgrading an electrical panel at $1,200, though it can range from a few hundred dollars to $5,000. (Count on it!!!)
    Induction ranges typically start around $1,000, though most are in the $2,000 to $4,000 range, while electric ranges start around $500. There are other costs associated with induction stoves: Only magnetic cookware works on them, which usually includes popular investment brands like Le Creuset, but still might require some to purchase new cookware. (Might???)
    Installation costs, separate from any electrical work, typically run between $100 and $200, and sometimes can be done by the company you bought the range from, according to several home improvement guides. (Yeah, get an installer out for $200 and what about the dump fee?).
    https://www.sfchronicle.com/climate/article/gas-stove-electric-appliance-17800124.php
    ————–
    So that’s where she ends up. But what did she miss? Oh, dozens of phone calls, appointments, emails with bids, scheduling, permits and permit delays, punch lists, touch up paint and/or tile work. What is the HOMEOWNER’S time worth? $100 an hour? $200? $300 in opportunity costs?
    Let’s just add a couple or three grand of soft costs, if you are lucky and efficient and don’t get a flake(s) to do the work. Plus Advil. It’s a joke.

  37. Joe

    Dave Price at the Daily Post spent all of yesterday’s column skewering the idea of banning natural gas. He hit on many of the same points I have been making and then went on to say “You won’t get to vote on this”. He issued a challenge that if we did get to vote on it, it would lose in a landslide.
    Price then named some of the people who will get to vote on it on March 15th. Some of the Bay Area Air Quality Management District board members are County Supes Noelia Corzo and Ray Mueller, Santa Clara County supe Otto Lee, Belmont vice mayor Davina Hurt and Mountain View councilwoman Margaret Abe-Koga.
    No indication if any of these people have one iota of STEM training or work experience.

  38. Spurinna

    I bet they vote to implement this because:
    1. To be in the right side of history.
    2. Because it’s the right thing to do.
    3. They have no idea how silly, dangerous and un-American
    such government-overreach is.
    4. It gets them points for further woke advancement in
    government.

  39. Forrest Gump

    Stupidest idea ever. I predict the most massive underground market in gas appliances ever. The Mexican cartels will start smuggling them in because they are worth more than….just leave it at that.
    Stupid is as stupid does.

  40. Barking Dog

    Tough to have a black market if BAAQMD and others tell PG&E to cap the all the natural gas lines.

  41. Barking Dog

    BAAQMD will vote today to ban gas water heaters by 2027 and gas furnaces by 2029 on all homes. According to their stats, it would save 85 lives per year.
    Fentanyl killed what, a 1000+ people in SF alone last year?
    Support open air drug markets, supply addicts with paraphernalia, not arrest or prosecute the dealers is ok, but lets ban gas appliances because they are the real killer.
    Clowns
    https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/bay-area-natural-gas-appliance-ban-17830363.php

  42. Joe

    Round Two of the fight to preserve your right to choose your fuel just started:
    A federal appeals court overturned Berkeley’s first-in-the-nation ban on natural gas lines in new buildings Monday, agreeing with restaurant owners that the ordinance conflicts with federal laws on energy efficiency.
    It was challenged by the California Restaurant Association, which contended the ordinance violated the federal Energy Policy and Conservation Act, or EPCA. The 1975 federal law, intended to increase energy production, included provisions that authorized U.S. officials to set energy-efficiency standards for appliances such as furnaces and water heaters.
    That means a local government can’t adopt rules that effectively ban those appliances, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, rejecting a federal judge’s 2021 decision that had upheld the Berkeley ordinance.
    By passing the federal law, “Congress ensured that States and localities could not prevent consumers from using covered products in their homes, kitchens, and businesses,” Judge Patrick Bumatay said in the 3-0 ruling, “By its plain language, EPCA preempts Berkeley’s regulation here because it (the city) prohibits the installation of necessary natural gas infrastructure on premises where covered natural gas appliances are used.”
    https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/ninth-circuit-berkeley-natural-gas-ban-17902110.php
    ———————
    How long will it take to repeal B’game’s Overreach Code? Who will be the first builder to walk into Planning and replace his all-electric submission with a dual-fuel plan?

  43. Paloma Ave

    So much for Burlingame City Council following the lead of the City of Berkeley.
    A federal appeals court rejected a petition Tuesday to rehear a case related to a natural gas ban proposed by the City of Berkeley, California, which the panel ruled was illegal last year.
    When will get rid of “woke” politicians here in Burlingame?

  44. Joe

    You can see from the April 18, 2023 comment above that teh Berkeley reach code was overturned almost a year ago. So what took San Mateo County so long to back-off? A year? How many people who wanted a gas stove in their project got told NO in the past year?
    San Mateo County temporarily suspended its all-electric mandate for new developments, as it navigates legal ambiguity arising from a court case invalidating Berkeley’s natural gas ban last year.
    The temporary hold for the rule, which had stipulated that all new buildings be fully electric, only applies to the unincorporated areas of the county, however, some Peninsula cities are also reassessing their own energy codes, commonly referred to as reach codes, which go beyond state-level mandates.
    https://www.smdailyjournal.com/news/local/san-mateo-county-halts-all-electric-mandate/article_95097a72-e01c-11ee-a1aa-5b0a91e967ca?utm_source=smdailyjournal.com&utm_campaign=%2Fnewsletters%2Fheadlines%2F%3F-dc%3D1710252005&utm_medium=email&utm_content=headline

  45. Paloma Ave

    Berkeley agrees to repeal its first-in-the-nation ban on new gas appliances.

  46. Joe

    Thanks to a letter to the editor of the SF Comicle in today’s paper from some intern from LA who works for some advocacy group that no one has ever heard of, we have a nice list of the House bills that we should support–the opposite of what he suggests. Here’s the list–love the titles!
    People need to know this is happening, and they need to tell their members of Congress to vote against:
    HR6192, the Hands Off Our Home Appliances Act;
    HR7673, the Liberty in Laundry Act;
    HR7645, the Clothes Dryers Reliability Act;
    HR7637, the Refrigerator Freedom Act;
    HR7626, the Affordable Air Conditioning Act;
    HR7700, the Stop Unaffordable Dishwasher Standards Act.
    Dear Kevin Mullin, please go 6 for 6 with a big “aye”.

  47. Paloma Ave

    Mullin will do what he is told to do, not by the voters, but by the democratic machine. Remember SB9 and SB10?

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