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Time for an SFO Curfew?

With the arrival of some nice winter storms comes the loud flights over B'game from SFO.  As a heavy traveler myself, I don't want to suggest doing anything that would make getting into or out of SFO any more difficult.  But.  Perhaps it is time to press for a late night curfew on departures when the airport is in the storm pattern mode.  The low hanging, loud noise directly over the residential part of the mid-Peninsula was close to unbearable last night until well after midnight.

There is a rush of departures at 10 pm as East Coast redeyes and European flights leave and they have to be allowed to get out.  Storms slow everything down and can push these flights past midnight, but there has to be a limit.  People have to get up for work in the morning so there has to be a balance.

From the Council assignments (see item 8a on the consent calendar here) that were confirmed last night Ricardo Ortiz will remain our rep on the Airport Round Table that meets quarterly.  That would be a good place to broach the topic.  What say you, Voice commentators?  Here are the runways that come right at us in reverse operations.

SFO Runways

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49 responses to “Time for an SFO Curfew?”

  1. Cassandra

    Orange County airport has a 10pm curfew. But, I understand there is a law now that prohibits cities from imposing curfews on airports. Plus, the airport belongs to San Francisco. You can imagine the hassle if such departures couldn’t be proved to annoy whales, etc…
    Yes, noisy last night. Also, I wrote one complaint to SFO and was told that even if a pilot could choose to depart safely on one runway, he could also choose a safe, closer runway that would make more noise over a neighborhood but entail a shorter taxi and less fuel. The pilot choose to hurry, save gas and flew over us last year at 1:59 am. Oh, well.

  2. hillsider

    Maybe Jerry Hill could get on this instead of worrying about the rinky dink stuff that has occupied his time so far.

  3. Cassandra

    Jerry Hill didn’t help with the train whistles as you may recall.
    He came to a meeting I attended and I mentioned to him that every time I hear the train whistle in the middle the night, “It calls his name: Jerrrrrrry. Jerrrrrrry. Jerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry.”

  4. HMB

    With the wind howling through the trees and shaking my house and the noise of the rain I didn’t even notice the planes for once!

  5. hillsider

    Writing new laws to outlaw stuff that is already illegal like underage drinking makes for good headlines.

  6. Cassandra

    Here’s what will change what is what: landing gear falls in a Millbrae pool.

  7. local motion

    The good news is a lot of flights are being cancelled so maybe just maybe we can get some sleep tonight. I love the curfew idea. How about it Ricardo. Can you make it happen?

  8. Joe

    The more I thought about this the more I came to the conclusion that this is probably something for the county supervisors to spearhead. I know down south, Anna Eshoo has stepped into the San Carlos airport and SFO overflights of Woodside, et al.
    Also the Roundtable has a website and a page for “Noise 101” that can be found here:
    http://sforoundtable.org/noise-101/

  9. hollyroller@gmail.com

    This aquostic phenomena that happens under specific weather condition is nothing new in Burlingame.
    It also happens in Millbrae, San Mateo, and SSF.
    San Bruno, won a class action lawsuit against SFO@ 30 plus years ago.
    Big time lawsuit.
    In the meantime:
    -A new roof. New 3/4 to 1 inch T&G Plywood. The best shingle/composite roofing covering available.
    -purchase double/triple pained windows.
    -insulate entire home; including walls, and ceilings and sub floors.
    -replace all interior/exterior doors, as well the garage doors too.
    NO HOLLOW CHEAP DOORS.
    This EXCELLANT and nessesary investment in your home and community should be available for purchase, or financing at between $140,000.00 and $220,000.00 per home depending on you choice of Air Conditioning configuration.
    The price is worth it.

  10. JROC

    Thank you for binging this up.
    If you look at SFO reports, complaints out of Burlingame are minimal so their focus is elsewhere(page 3 of this report): http://media.flysfo.com/SFO%20DR%20201611.pdf) Burlingame has 454 reports from 7 individuals compared to South City (1,386 form 40) or Pacifica (13,040 from 79) .
    Time to file a report:
    http://www.flysfo.com/community/noise-abatement/file-a-complaint
    You know, the squeaky wheel……..
    As far as a curfew, call your Congresswoman and Senator. This is not a local decision:
    In 1990, Congress passed the Airport Noise and Capacity Act. This law was a compromise between the airlines and the airports: airlines were required to phase out the use of the noisiest aircraft (known as Stage 2 aircraft) and airport operators were prohibited from creating curfews or other operating restrictions. Airports with existing curfews were allowed to keep the curfew in place under a “grandfather” clause. Since SFO did not have an operations curfew in place at the time the law was enacted it is now prohibited from establishing one.

  11. miguel r

    In 45 years planes never bothered me. I knew there was a airport and a train running through. Its just in inclement weather. How about this. A no fly zone over Burlingame. Just deal with it and next time don’t buy a house near train tracks, airport, freeway.

  12. hillsider

    Smart move, miguel, taking your hearing aids out when you go to sleep.
    Time to change a 25 year old law that does not keep up with the times.

  13. Handle Bard

    When the airlines start flying prop planes again I be fine with the noise. In the meantime Miguel you are being foolish.

  14. J. Mir

    Please. The people who suffer the most from this are in San Bruno. They don’t get nearly the attention they deserve, but they don’t complain as loudly as people here do, nor do they tend to have the financial resources and time to mount effective resistance.
    Planes and transportation are important for the area and the economy. SFO only changes the flight patterns on rare occasions, and when extreme weather is in effect causing safety issues, and this was definitely the case this week (!)
    I live literally 5 mins away from SFO and planes were booming literally OVER MY RESIDENCE this week. But I am not bothered the slightest about it when I think about how much more our San Brunan neighbors have to suffer, and how much fewer resources those folks have to deal. Have a heart, and nix the whining. We are very lucky to live here.

  15. hollyroller@gmail.com

    People suffer all type of issues who live in San Bruno, CA.
    Those “People” in San Bruno have absolutely no idea how to manage Multi- Million Dollar property portfolios, keep the “Staff” in check.
    Including attorneys, caterers, Contractors, neighbors, and friends.
    Whenever I think about San Bruno, my foot itches.

  16. Joe

    Sometimes the original intent gets lost in the comment stream. I don’t mind–that is what comments are for, but just to come back to my original question: for those rare nights when the airport is in reverse operation, does a curfew of 12am or 1am seem reasonable? JROC notes prior law, but laws can be changed and this doesn’t strike me as unreasonable. And I like Handle Bard’s example of propeller planes being the prior situation albeit not in 1990 when the federal law was passed.
    In the meantime all, let’s catch up on the complaint count, please. I used to do it but got discouraged because it never had any effect. Time to reengage I think.

  17. BillyGBob

    An occasional curfew would in effect eliminate the flights potentially impacted. Reverse flow does happen throughout the year (though rarer in the summer) so airlines would be reluctant to schedule late night flights because of the risk that their schedules get upset at the last minute; for example, a flight scheduled for midnight would be at risk of a 6 hour delay, which, if the winds shift, could be imposed while the aircraft is taxiing out the runway.
    From what I can tell from SFO’s noise abatement site, the flights that went over Burlingame on the night of Jan 3rd/4th were mostly the typical red-eye flights to DC, NY, and Chicago. So, such a curfew could result in the elimination of red-eye flights.
    I’m guessing the source of most of the angst on that evening were the one 767 and 777 that went out around 12:30a, as well as the fact that Virgin America and JetBlue’s redeyes use A320s, which have whiney engines.

  18. hollyroller@gmail.com

    Traveling out of the US regularly-international flights, during the last 20 plus years, always took place-after 12:00AM.
    Maybe the cost/tax may benefit the airlines,and Counties..
    There seems two solution’s to this problem:
    Close SFO
    Remove/Buyout, all homeowners/renters, schools,and business.
    In the long term, the Airlines will most likely benefit 10 fold.

  19. Noise To Meet You…

    As a former Burlingame resident for 8 years, I appreciate the problem of SFO noise. However, now that we live in Belmont (more house for the money and excellent schools), we still hear the SFO noise because now we’re at the top of the hill. Now, I actually hear the train more than when we lived around El Camino Real in Burlingame.
    Does the train really need to honk it’s horn so much?
    Don’t worry, Electrification (High Speed Rail Prep) is on the way! Massively overbudget, but a windfall to all of the MBE’s awarded contracts.

  20. hillsider

    Hollyroller, you are as nuts as ever. Keep on keepin’ on you crazy ole lunatic. Remove/Buyout, all homeowners/renters, schools,and business.

  21. Joe

    Thank you, BillyGBob, for what appears to be an insider’s view of the curfew/noise issue. Care to elaborate just a little on how you are so knowledgeable?
    To your point about such a curfew causing airlines to evaluate the risk of scheduling redeyes especially in the winter, that is the sort of business risk airlines deal with everyday. Not to diminish it, but it is manageable. If they kept redeyes scheduled to no later than 10pm and the curfew hit at 1am, that is manageable in my opinion.

  22. BillyGBob

    Red-eyes leaving here before 10p arrive really, really early at the other end of the trip (especially to Chicago, Houston, and Dallas…which would land around..say 3:30a), such that they’re likely very unattractive for passengers because it forces a 3 to 4 hour wait for the next morning connect bank. Basically, you’d be de facto prohibiting a season’s worth of late-night flights because there are a few days where SFO has to use the 19s for departures (often fewer than 5 days per year..sometimes zero, if I recall correctly).
    As for knowledge, let’s just say I’ve lived in Burlingame for over 15 years and I fly a lot.

  23. Horatio Alvarez Goldstein

    Delaying flights further when they are already delayed during storms is ridiculous.

  24. Andy Greer

    You’re complaining about a handful of days of reverse runway ops at SFO yet you have no problem putting up with 24/7/365 days of train horns.

  25. Joe

    Andy, your comment is what is known as a non sequitur – it don’t follow from the premise of the post. If you care to read up on the Samtrans/Caltrain thread found on the right hand frame, you will find a good place to put comments about the horns.
    Horatio — why is it “ridiculus”. Try finishing the thought and responding to the original argument, if you can.

  26. fred

    Non sequitur?!? Those trains cause noise every day that is heard close by and up the hills and we all know the meth-head (guessing that) Southern Pacific engineer who’ll lay on the horn for ten miles at three in the morning. Elevated tracks would prevent those horns and save a bunch of lives. But let’s complain about five or ten days of airplanes taking off. Crikey…

  27. Joe

    You are smart enough and well informed enough to know they are required by the Federal bullies to do just what they are doing, Fred. Oh, and I’ll bet you know that the 3 am train is a Union Pacific freighter, too.
    How about we complain about something that could actually be fixed??

  28. fred

    Thanks Joe, and it is possible to establish a federal quiet zone. The trains have to be moved from grade but in the northeast Chicago suburbs (which is basically Chicago’s version of our area) they have a short berm that traffic can drive over and pedestrians can cross and the horns are not used.
    https://metrarail.com/riding-metra/safety-environmental-compliance/train-horns-quiet-zones

  29. Noise To Meet You…

    Fred, it’s called “The North Shore” like Evanston, Wilmette, Winnetka, Kenilworth, Glencoe, all the way to Lake Forest…that’s where I’m from.
    There are no Northeast suburbs, as that would be The Lake.
    Burlingame’s largest auto dealer is also from Wilmette, IL. Kinda like Burlingame, but no extreme Left Wing slanderors.

  30. fred

    You must have spent a lot of time at Wrigley Park.

  31. hollyroller@gmail.com

    I believe it is time to stop posts of the “OBVIOUS” problems facing any people who live near an Airport anywhere in the world.
    Why not discuss weather, pot holes, taxes, etc.
    How is the new City of Burlingame Mayor doing?
    Why has the City Manager fired the entire City of Burlingame HR Dept?
    Is the City Manager doing a “Good Job?”
    How have these winter storms effected the Trees of Burlingame?
    Are Public Work Assets adequate in response to Winter Storm events?
    Who is “The Real Bruce Dickenson, and how can we confirm?
    Happy New Year..
    Seriously, enough with SFO.

  32. Handle Bard

    Late night flights that wake up tons of people on the ground are essentially a public health hazard. It is well established that disrupted sleep can cause poor driving the following day. Just look at the effect of when we turn the clocks ahead an hour in the spring for a small example.
    Waking up that many people for the convenience of a hundred or so per flight is a public health hazard.

  33. Namlo Tundo

    I am all for a curfew. Plane after plane. It is endless.

  34. Cassandra

    2-4 am last night… Wow.

  35. hillsider

    Without any good reason weather-wise. Somebody has to do sumtin’.

  36. Horatio Alvarez Goldstein

    Because, Joe flights are already badly delayed when there is a storm. To further back up flights which is precisely what your proposal would do, not only affects flights out of SFO, it affects flights nationwide. My original statement was simple and clear. Delaying flights because a few people don’t like late night noise during a storm is utterly ridiculous.

  37. Handle Bard

    Your comment was ridiculous the first time and it is ridiculous now. We are not talking about “not liking late night noise”. We are talking about a public health hazard to those people. And it is not a “few people” it is tens of thousands of people between Millbrae and Palo Alto or even Santa Clara. The “few people” are the few people on these flights.

  38. handle bard

    Here is the county missing the big ugly forest for the little tiny trees As efforts to mitigate San Carlos Airport noise ramp up with county officials considering flight restrictions and an evening curfew for certain aircraft, resident are left wondering when they will find relief to disruptive noise from crowded Peninsula skies.
    San Mateo County officials announced Monday they are considering the new policies for the county-managed San Carlos Airport with consideration by the Board of Supervisors in July.
    The proposed changes include calling for fewer flights and even 9 p.m. and 6 a.m. restrictions for certain aircraft.
    – See more at: http://www.smdailyjournal.com/articles/lnews/2017-03-08/county-aiming-to-stem-flight-noise-affected-san-carlos-residents-await-answers-after-studies-and-analysis/1776425176980#sthash.OzC2aixv.dpuf
    What about SFO that keeps more than just Sna Carlos awake at night????????????????????

  39. Joe

    Last evening and last night were pretty bad for SFO airplane noise. The major blast at 4:30 am was the worst. It cost me easily an hour’s sleep. This is really getting to be a public nuisance and it wasn’t even due to bad weather!

  40. resident

    The noise tonight is ridiculous riiiidiickullous. We are eating out in the yard and we can barely hold a conversation. What is up with these people??????????????

  41. Peter Garrison

    They were back doing engine run-ups again a couple weeks ago at night. How they can’t figure out to point the engine blast east across the water I don’t know. But with the inversion layers we can still get some weird echoes bouncing back our way.
    As noted before – I received a response from the airport about a take off late at night and they said that the pilots are able to choose which runway to use. The tower can suggest noise abatement but what happens, is to save money on gas, the airlines taxi the shortest distance to the usable runway- which blasts us to the west.

  42. D

    SFO is a terrible neighbor and needs to be reined in by imposing a curfew no later than midnight. It was so bad this morning that no one could sleep. It started at 12:12 am and continued constantly until 2:10 am, every minute a flight buzzed the house. It is ridiculous and SFO couldn’t care less..

  43. BillyGBob

    For SFO to impose a curfew, it would have to prove to the FAA that the action would: (1) be reasonable, nonarbitrary, and nondiscriminatory; (2) not create an undue burden on interstate or foreign commerce; (3) maintain safe and efficient use of airspace; (4) not conflict with any existing federal statute or regulation; (5) provide adequate opportunity for public comment; and (6) create no undue burden on the national aviation system. There are some pretty high hurdles there…which is why no US airport has imposed a curfew in over 25 years.

  44. resident

    It’s out of control loud right now. 1 thru 6 except for maybe 4 are all being met and if 4 is a problem then statutes are made to be changed. Time to do SOMETHING

  45. Pete Garrison

    4:29 AM

  46. BillyGBob

    2 and 6 are tough ones to prove, especially since “undue” is a subjective term.

  47. State Run

    They will move you idiots out before they implement a curfew.
    I am all for expanding the airport up to the railroad tracks near California Street. It makes more money for the State.
    Trains as well. Build a lightning fast bullet train and bridge riders over to airport at Burlingame Street.
    Mostly tear down houses east of the tracks anyway don’t you think?

  48. Cassandra

    No “streets” in Burlingame…

  49. Cathy Baylock

    Thank you Cassandra! There are not “streets” in Burlingame and here is why: https://burlingamehistory.org/history-of-burlingame/origin-of-street-names-and-other-tidbits-burlingame-and-hillsborough-compiled-2012/

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